Len Gould: Good morning.

Len Gould: I started at Fairfield in November ‘55 but previously I had been it in their city store in Oxford Street for approximately 12 months. And I was… I came to Fairfield as a promotion to work as their display manager.

Len Gould: Well I was there 12 months approximately.

Len Gould: It was a promotion, yes. Actually quite exciting at the time because I was only just 21 and you weren’t really a senior until you were 21 in those days. So to be given that position was exciting for me.

Len Gould: Well at the time I was living at Petersham but I was about to get married so… I decided to come to Fairfield to live.

Len Gould: Yeah well, I needed to live somewhere and the decision was that we would live here. Because it was close to work and you save travelling plus you save the expense of travelling.

Len Gould: The store was, it was quite exciting for me and quite exciting for Fairfield because I think it was the first department store in Fairfield for many years and it was quite modern. During the period when everything was contemporary it was rather a classy sort of store and a big event for Fairfield. It... you know, we had a ground floor and a mezzanine floor which... the mezzanine floor accommodated all the staff amenities plus fashion department, shoe department, office. And the ground floor had all the other departments on it. They stocked… menswear, womenswear… women's accessories and manchester. Electrical appliances… floor coverings… crockery, kitchenware and general household goods. And on the ground floor there was also a car-park which only held 12 cars but… different time then to what it is now where we need big car-parks.

Len Gould: Well, probably some did. They couldn't park there but other staff members — I know some that rode a push bike (laughter) and others walked I suppose… got the bus. Fairfield was a rather quiet place in 1955. You could ride your bike to work and parked it out front and it’d be still there when you went out. Occasionally some got stolen (laughs) but not very often.

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Len Gould: Well the working conditions were quite good. Yeah, it was a nice friendly store to work for and… most people just went about their jobs and I don't think they got harassed too much by management.

Len Gould: No, well I didn't belong to a union. I think there were shop assistants unions but you really didn't need to be.

Len Gould: Well I do, at the time when I was there actually, Ian Winn was the store manager and... I worked with people like Florence Stimson… Ben Galagher, Thora Atkinson, Nan Kitching, Maury Biggs, Eadie Reid, Pat Dalby, it was quite a few staff. We had a big staff. I — if I remember rightly we had about 120 staff when the store opened. I think they reduced it a little bit later but there was a big staff. And it was a fairly busy store too.

Len Gould: Yes well we had a very strong social club that was started up and… we ran a lot of various activities… which the staff joined in. We also ran various things where the money was donated to different charities. We had a rather — in the store there was a rather large lunch room which was ideal for having functions. We would have supper dances — they were called — with fashion parades. We'd have... I remember we had a Charleston night one night. We had a hula night. And every year we ran an annual ball. I think the first Annual Ball was held in the Liverpool Town Hall and afterwards here in Cabramatta in the Civic Hall.

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Len Gould: No, I don't think we had to pay but each week we would run a raffle and I think the prize was an open order for X amount of Pounds I suppose, in those days. And most people bought tickets and that gave us enough money to function with.

Len Gould: Well I always wanted to do display work and I came from the country. And getting the job at Winns gave me the experience that I needed to move on to something bigger… which I did after six years. I went to work for Marcus Clarke's at Liverpool. And then I went on, Marcus Clarke's became Waltons and I stayed at Waltons for 26 years.

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Florence Callicott: Good morning Marilyn.

Florence Callicott: I was here from the Monday before it opened on the Thursday. I had worked at Oxford Street since the January of that year. When I finished school mum had taken me for Vocational guidance interview and they suggested that I'd be suitable for a buyer and retail store. And as Winns were starting to build at the beginning of that year, I went in to Oxford Street to get a job there so I could be transferred out. And... it was a fascinating sort of place in there. If you ever watched, ‘are you being served,’ you know with the old Mr Grace, well old Mr G. R. was a dead ringer for him. And they were a real funny old family firm but they were very renowned for their work with charities and they were very friendly.

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But we all, over the years I'm sure, we used to talk and wonder how on earth they ever made any money, but they did. But any how, I transferred — well they sent me to Retail College while I was in there. I used to have to go once a week to the YMCA building in Pitt Street and then we came out to Fairfield in November. And because I hadn't, I suppose any how because I'd only just turned 17 at that stage, because I had my Leaving Certificate and went to college, I was made section head of the napery department and even for a while I think I was in charge of Thora stocking the (laughs) at that time stocking kitchenware and crockery. And at that time that felt very funny because I was rather shy actually, it mightn’t of seemed that way but I was and I was only 17 and they were married women.

On opening day the main thing that my department was selling was 3 and 11 penny tablecloths, a yard square, metre squared. And they came in great long rolls and, unhemmed, you know, you had to hem them yourself but for 3 and 11pence that was all right. But we had to cut them, cut them, cut them and as quick as we were cutting them they were selling. That opening day, I imagine it was the same in everybody else's department, but on my department you didn't raise your head. You just didn't raise your head, (laughs) in multiples of 3 and 11 pence. In those days the brain still worked and I could work it out pretty quick and you know, we, we, we just… it was just frantic all day. And — because it was a big thing for Fairfield, as Len said you know, all the departments. It was the first department store and it was a good store and… you know everybody from everywhere just flocked there.

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Florence Callicott: The... record department which was quite amusing because when we were there was when sort of, rock and roll really got going. And so the youngsters from the high school would come in. And the lady who ran the record department couldn't stand youngsters (laughs). And… but, but we used to knock off every night to, Rock Around the Clock. Instead of a bell going or whatever she put the needle on, Rock Around the Clock and we'd sort of rock out every evening. Every time I hear that it brings that back to me. In the centre, which was behind the dress materials... there was a big platform which was used for display. But then sometimes it was used for fashion parades because you'd come down the steps from the mezzanine floor and there was an opening but they could come halfway down the steps and then walk along the catwalk more or less. And they were very good.

Florence Callicott: I suppose just change of season you know, the spring and autumn sort of thing as far as I remember. And I was trying to remember some of the names of the models because they were well known models from Sydney… you know, they were top flight models that would come and do that sort of thing. And perhaps it's my age showing but... they wore clothes and were of a figure that any age group watching them could picture themselves wearing it, perhaps in a different size but you know. Whereas now you see these skinny minnies and you think, who the devil could wear that even if you were young (laughs). But any how I spent a day doing that, but you know, it was a magnet to you know, Villawood and Cabramatta and all those places, people would come in for, if there was a fashion parade on or whatever. And it was... in the early days of the post-war migration and we had a lot of staff from Cabramatta hostel which was mainly people from the UK at that time and of course you'd have a lot of shoppers as well. But it was also the beginnings of the Italian migration and I think… I think that had a big influence on us as a store. And, as I say, in my department they'd be going for these flash, you know, big table settings with X number of serviettes and everything. And to a large degree — and I know it's quite often still the same in that culture, because we went into business later and it was still the same when we were there — was that they were a bit curious to know what so-and-so had spent because they needed to spend at least as much.

Florence Callicott: Yes, like if there was a wedding on. If there was a wedding on — you knew there was a wedding on if you worked in certain departments, Thora probably found the same in the crockery department. And it was sort of… they didn't necessarily have to win the competition but they didn't want to be under what the other person had spent. And so if you'd had one good sale, you had a fair idea you were going to have a couple of more good sales, you know.

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Florence Callicott: Well the main street until Winns was built was The Crescent. All the main shopping was in The Crescent except to come up, you know, to Downes’ in Ware Street. And when I was at school mum’d say now — cos I went to school at Parramatta — mum’d say, ‘now I want you to go up to the Post Office for me after school,’ and, I'd say, ‘Oh mum, all the way up to the Post Office?’ One thing it meant I had to get a bus half an hour later to get home but, but there was nothing between Downes — oh and the Council building — and the Post Office was just sort of vacant land. Oh, the baby health centre but like they wasn't shopping. And I used to think that was such a drag to have to go all the way up to the Post Office. But you know, there were vacant blocks. There was… not too long before that, they used to milk the cow in the front yard of probably where the Civic Hotel then was, you know there were still houses. They were — it was a dentists but they lived there. Like some of the houses were businesses in some way but they were still homes as well. Except for Fitzgeralds and Kays on the corner there, the haberdashery building on the corner of Harris Street. But that... that was more or less it. Ware Street was sealed down the centre.

See one of the reasons why I didn't come to Winns till November was it should have, if I remember rightly, it should have been finished in May, but they struck trouble with the foundations because there's an underground spring in that area there and they were always having trouble. And later, like, I went from there to the council, later they had trouble building Ware Street to the standard it is today because they struck trouble with underground water there as well, in Ware Street. And they found an old fashioned sapling drain when they were excavating to do Ware Street there.

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Yes, so that's you know, the roads were very far from what you'd like them to be.

And going back to the type of story was and Len’s part in it. Len was a very gifted window-dresser and Winns played a big part in the... in the town in this way as whatever was on, they did a window. I remember when Sputnik went up and... that was the first spacecraft and, I think that was ‘56 was it? I don't think I know but when the Sputnik went up, you did a window with Sputnik and I think my husband was involved in that too with an electrical bit to make it you know, the lights flash on and off and all that stuff. And then eat each time Fairfield show was on, we'd have a big window you know, more or less advertising the show. Anything like that that Winns entered very much in to what was going on in the town. We also had a pavilion, or stand out at the show and these were the very early days a Fairfield Show too. So, you know, it was a big part of the town.

Thora Atkinson: Good morning Marilyn.

Thora Atkinson: I came to Winns... on 21 November 1955. And I was interviewed by Mr Frank. I got my job, not my job but I was — through my sister really who worked at Ashfield and she... saw her manager who was Wally Scott and he just wrote her a little note to, you know, and Mr Frank just said, ‘oh you re a friend of the family.’ Then I was put in crockery... and that's where I sort of was for… all of 15 more years. And I had Mrs Cross who was... my boss but she was a funny lady from time to time. But as — when we first started, the trucks used to coming and everybody used to go to wherever — that department, if it happened to be crockery — well everybody would come there and help and then if that was finished you'd go somewhere else. And I can always remember Florence was very nice and she was only young at the time but she helped me no end and was very nice and she helped me to know how to pack crockery, which I didn't know too much about. As I was from the country and had never worked in a shop before.

Thora Atkinson: Yes, Len Gould, Florence Stimson Callicott, Mrs Cross, Gwen Killaby, Mrs Cartwright, Peggy Cartwright, Mr Nebacot, Alex and (name not clear), Isobel (Howick), Nan Kitching, I think I knew them all. Some I've forgotten now over the years, you forget who's who.

Thora Atkinson: Yes, a few funny stories but don't think I could tell them(laughter).

Thora Atkinson: Well one — I have to tell you this it's quite funny. I went to lunch and I was the only one there on this particular day and the lady on, one of the ladies on the dress materials came over to help. And she — a young couple came in and they wanted a specimen vase. And this lady, she didn't know what a specimen vase was so she showed them an aluminium chamber (laughter), and they just smiled and said, ‘no thanks that's just not what we want.’

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Thora Atkinson: Some were very good and some were very funny, you know.

Thora Atkinson: Ah well we had a lady who... we had a floor walker once that used to stand out like a sore thumb because Fairfield was a country... country little town really in those days. And she was always dressed up to the nines and I mean people weren't dressed like that. Yes, yes. Anyway, as she came round to our department one day and she said, ‘that lady just going out the door is a shoplifter.’ and I said, ‘oh don't be ridiculous she owns half Fairfield.’ Which she did(laughter). Well she did, didn't she? And… she said, ‘she really is,’ and she pinched — oh honestly, 1 and 11 pence or something, a little hand saw, I'll never forget that. Anyway and I — later on, she was a shoplifter because even when we moved around the corner in 1961, there was some... power point plugs that you put on the power and they were put on counter to be thruppence each and she took them from right under our nose.

Nan Kitching: Good morning.

Nan Kitching: The week... Thora, you said a date, the week after it opened.

Nan Kitching: Yeah, the week after.

Nan Kitching: Woolworths, just round the corner.

Nan Kitching: Yes.

Nan Kitching: In Woolworths. I was three years in Woolworths and then I went up to Winns.

Nan Kitching: Lots of little things that you… and the friendship that was kept up over the years you know. Thora, Isobel, I mean you go down shopping now and I meet Thora going in the bank or something and it's sort of still there you know.

Nan Kitching: Yes, the friendships still there yeah. No, it was a very… a very good friendly crowd then, the friendship was there amongst, well, majority of everybody.

Nan Kitching: Well, that was a funny incident. We had got a new manager and he was one of these… a bit of a dogmatic thing. And I can remember — I can still see the man's face. I was on confectionery and we had those haloes you know, and he came up and he just got on to me too much one-day and I was trying to do book work. He said, ‘aren't you finished yet, aren't you finished yet?’ and I said, ‘you can do it any quicker, do it.’ And I handed him the halo, I can still see the look on his face. I can still see his face when I handed him the white halo to do the job himself. And that's it. So then I went up to Winns and I saw Ian and...

Nan Kitching: Ian Winn. And he says ‘yes, by all means.’ and of course he asked me why I was leaving Woolworths and I could tell him the story I said, ‘I've just handed the manager my white halo,’ he says, ‘you what?’ I says, ‘you know the white halo we all wear on confectionery? And I told him to wear it and do the job.’ So I started then with the Winns. And it was... it was one of the nicest working conditions and friendliest, you know.

Nan Kitching: Oh well when the store was flooded we all sort of got in with buckets and mops and helped everybody out and lifted stock all over the place you know, there was... sort of... it was all hands on deck you know, we all sort of had to...

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Nan Kitching: Was it?

(unclear, others speaking)

for a little while you know, but nothing... it was really... you sort of all bogged in at the time and helped everybody you know. When you finished what you were doing in your department, you went and helped on the others, you know.

Nan Kitching: Well we made a lot of good friends, a lot of long-lasting friendship... we're still all friendly you know. And the family's all grew up and we sort of seen every — all the daughters getting married and the troubles you know. We all sort of shared each other's little problems. And we sort of... we were such a — it was a friendly store and the majority of the staff was all...was all friends. There was just the odd one or two that thought they were different... but the majority of us we were all, we all had the same ideas and children growing up and school you know.

Isobel Howick: When I, I went to work because I had a son that was in hospital very sick at the time and he'd been in hospital from August and the doctor advised me to get a job because I was — to take I mind off, off him. He still had a lot longer to go in hospital and also to... we needed the money to pay bills. So Ian Winn gave me the... the doctor contacted Winns and Ian gave me the job there. I started in the furnishing department. Like Thora and the others I was very raw. I'd never worked in a shop before and… to go into a furnishing department where you had to... give advice on windows, know sizes, how much material to sell people and it was,.. very daunting at first. The assistant manager was Barney Collins and Barney Collins would be across on the other side of the room and — but you had to go over where he worked to ring up your sales on the register and when you rang up the sale, he would, could tell you how much material you sold by the by num... the sale. And he knew the price of the material you sold, so he'd know how much you sold. And he'd always you know, sort of check on you, very good, very nice man. Linda Hall was in charge of the department at the time and she was very helpful to me. She helped me a great deal. I found Winns were a great firm to work for. They were a real family orientated... bosses. As long as you did the right thing by them, they did the right thing by you too and they were all good. In my time there we went through quite a few different bosses, managers. We went from Ian Winn, to Walter Winn who was a lovely lovely man.

Isobel Howick: They were. They were cousins. Frank Winn and Walter Winn were... brothers and Ian Winn belonged to another... they were cousins. And then there was one at Auburn who was another Winn, Stan Winn wasn't it? He... I think he spent a bit of time there but not very long. And then from then on we had... sort of... different managers. Yes, different ones came and went. They'd spend a couple of years there and then they'd move them on and move them around.

Isobel Howick: Oh it's changed… changed a lot over the years yes, not only since I've worked there but (.. unclear ..) The Crescent, just a couple of shops around the corner in Ware Street and a couple round the corner — well I think — in Smart Street, the only shop round the corner there was a fish shop, owned by (.. unclear ..).

Isobel Howick: No.

Isobel Howick: Woolworths were there.

Isobel Howick: Nock and Kirby's came... I think they, they came after Winns I think. Yes, after Winns… and then, Nock and Kirby's were on one corner (.. unclear ..) was on the other corner and then Waltons a bit further down. But the... where Winns had built it was a real... it was always wet, always water there, lying there. And actually I think there's a... should be a photo of Winns site before it was built, in the library here. If not they've got one at the Museum… of that corner before it was built.

Isobel Howick: It was the... the goods they sold were... I'd say they were on par with Grace Brothers. They were better than... K-Mart and those cheaper shops. They had the better type of goods.

Isobel Howick: No.

Isobel Howick: That came on later. But the people you know, loved Winns and they used to come in there shopping and when it closed they were, you know, sort of very upset about it and I think that's when Fairfield started going down the drain, when Winns closed.

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